INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — One person who truly knows the problems and possibilities of downtown Indianapolis likes what he sees in the new vision for Circle Centre Mall.

“It’s very bold. It’s exciting. It’s kind of projecting into the future,” former Mayor Greg Ballard told us in a wide-ranging conversation on Daybreak.

Ballard held office through the retail-shaking years of 2008 to 2016, when a battering recession and evolving shopping habits threatened to make conventional malls obsolete. At that time, Circle Centre Mall started a nearly constant struggle to keep anchor stores and fill its smaller storefronts.

“Amazon and all those things kind of came together, and maybe it became a little bit less attractive. The fact that they kept it going for this long with that format, I think, says a lot of good things about the city of Indianapolis. But this is a good time to move on,” Ballard said.

Ballard points to the departure of Nordstrom not long before the city hosted the 2012 Super Bowl. The city turned the loss into a short-term gain as a gathering space for fans, but Ballard indicates the long-term impact was profound.

“It became ‘The Huddle,’ if people remember that. It was actually a bonus for us, I mean, it really worked out well for us. But the fact that Nordstrom pulled out – it was a precursor to what was about to happen.”

Ballard does not agree with the notion that safety and security at the mall directly led to the decline.

“There was some crime. We had some incidents over there, particularly on nights, but we kind of got that solved with the cooperation of the mall, and the police department kind of figured all that out,” he said “In the longer run, I think it was just the economic factors around the country, the way people were living their lives.”

We asked Ballard if he approves of the use of public money in the form of low- or no-interest loans, tax breaks, and other incentives for the project – or if the government should steer clear of such direct involvement in the ups and downs of the free market.

“I’m actually a big fan of public-private partnerships. I think cities move forward with public-private partnerships.” His lone worry concerns the literal foundations of the project. “I wonder who’s going to own the land at the end of this? Land is a foundation of the economy, and who’s going to own the property in 40 years? So I’m not saying it’s good or it’s bad. I’m just, I mean, that’s one of those questions to be answered.”

We also asked Ballard about the city’s longstanding pattern of cooperation between Mayoral administrations, regardless of political party. The Circle City Mall project started under Republicans William Hudnut and Stephen Goldsmith, thrived during the term of Democrat Bart Peterson, presented challenges that Ballard began to address while he was in office, and now looks headed to a major reimagining during the administration of Democrat Joe Hogsett – all without the public backbiting between parties that is now common in other settings.

“It’s just kind of built into what we do. And it’s been to our benefit, obviously, and I think most people would agree with that. But you have to think long term on all these things. You just can’t think about short-term politics for the next election,” Ballard says. “We have to do the right thing. And this particular vision for this area looks to be the right thing to do to me. And so I admire everybody stepping up to do it.”