INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — Day eight in the trial of Delphi Murders suspect Richard Allen begins Saturday morning at the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi.

Allen, 52, is charged with murder and murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping in the deaths of 13-year-old Abigail “Abby” Williams and 14-year-old Liberty “Libby” German. The girls’ bodies were found near the Monon High Bridge near Delphi on Feb. 14, 2017, a day after they went missing.

Allen was first investigated in 2017 and again in October 2022. After a second police interview, he was taken into custody.

The trial began Oct. 18 and was expected to continue through mid-November. Sixteen Allen County residents sit as the jury on the case.

Day 8 of the Delphi Murders trial was set to begin at 9 a.m. Saturday.

Tune into News 8 and follow our live blog throughout the day for the latest developments.

NOTE: The times listed in the blog headers are the times which the entries were added. Specific times for courtroom events will be listed in the entries if available. These notes are compiled from photographs of written notes provided by reporters in courtroom and emailed to the WISH-TV news desk.

For a brief summary of Day 7 in the Delphi Murders trial (Friday), scroll to the bottom of the page.

To view all of our previous trial coverage, click here.

• More Delphi Murders trial on WISHTV.com

11:30 a.m.: Defense cross-examines ISP Lt. Holeman

After a short break, the jury returned to the courtroom to hear ISP Lt. Jerry Holeman’s continued cross-examination by defense attorney Andrew Baldwin.

Holeman told the jury he told Richard Allen two lies during the Oct. 26, 2022, interview.

One of lies? Holeman wasn’t lying to him.

“‘I’m not lying to you, Rick, that’s unethical,’” Baldwin quoted, saying this was a quote from Holeman to Allen.

Holeman then said he told Allen, “You’re going to drag your (expletive) wife and daughter through this because you’re too (expletive) bullheaded to get out in front of it.”

Baldwin claimed Holeman said this to get into Allen’s head about how this would impact his family. Baldwin also said Holeman did not send the unspent cartridge to another agency for a second test to see if it matched Allen’s Sig Sauer. He continued by saying Allen’s drive home after the interview was recorded, but a quote Holeman claimed Allen made earlier in October was not recorded.

Baldwin then questioned Holeman on his theory about where Richard Allen’s car was parked on Feb. 13, 2017. Holeman answered that he didn’t have a theory, but couldn’t name witnesses who knew where his car was. He also said he didn’t watch security camera footage that showed Allen’s car near the trail.

Various law enforcement officers said they believed Allen left the crime scene by 3:30 p.m. and his role in the murders was finished by 4 p.m. The officers also did not believe Allen took Libby German’s phone from the scene, which Baldwin mentioned to the court that Libby’s phone would give a good timeline.

Holeman then told the jury he believed only one person killed Libby and Abby, but first thought more than one may have been involved. Holeman commented on remarks made by past law enforcement about Libby’s death, then said they tried to analyze the height of “Bridge Guy” from the video, but didn’t think it would be accurate. Baldwin chimed in to say that service would have cost around $10,000.

Baldwin asked Holeman if he knew about the hair found in Abby’s hand that wasn’t fully DNA tested until last week. Holeman responded that “timing and resources needed to be used in other areas.”

“There’s been mistakes made, yes,” Holeman said about the overarching investigation.

Baldwin and Holeman discussed the sticks found at the scene and on top of the girls’ bodies. Holeman said the sticks were used to the conceal the crime, but they weren’t positioned any special way.

Holeman then told the jury he thinks that the killer heard people on the bridge and then killed the girls. “It’s just a theory,” he said. Holeman added that two witnesses, Betsy Blair and Sarah Carbaugh, were believable, and also said they once considered the idea that there were two people on the bridge.

Baldwin mentioned Libby’s phone last pinged from a cell phone tower at 5:44 p.m. Feb. 13. Holeman mentioned that Libby’s sister, Kelsi Seibert, did not have her phone data extracted, but “he didn’t need that information to arrest Allen.”

Holeman also agreed he believed the phone stayed underneath Abby’s back from 3:30 p.m. to when they were found on Feb. 14.

State prosecutor Nick McLelland chimed in to ask if there were “any signs the girls died then were put into a car and moved.” Holeman said no.

The session ended with two questions from the jury. The first question asked if there was a way bridge to get where the girls were without crossing the bridge, and Holeman answered, “There’s an unapproved way.” Ultimately, Holeman said everyone was on the bridge.

The second question was if he knew if Libby’s dad was shouting for the girls. He said no.

11:30 a.m.: Court adjourns for Saturday

10:09 a.m.: Lieutenant who interviewed Richard Allen testifies

Court returned Saturday at 9:03 a.m. According to notes provided by News 8’s Kyla Russell, the alternate juror who had been dismissed Friday morning did not return to court. She also says the jurors had supervised access to their phones Friday evening.

The state called Indiana State Police Lt. Jerry Holeman to the stand. He interviewed Richard Allen on Oct. 26, 2022.

Holeman first commented on Melissa Oberg’s statement Friday where she said a firearm tool kit test was like a paternity test, and said that her statement was “not correct” and he misunderstood her. Oberg was a former forensic firearm analyst who examined the unspent cartridge, or “magic bullet,” found near the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German. She had determined it was cycled by Allen’s gun.

Holeman explained to the jury the process of interviewing suspects and different techniques he’d learned, including “lying to (suspects)” about the amount of evidence investigators have and how to read a suspect’s body language to determine if they are lying.

He said he interviewed Allen at the ISP Lafayette Post following . Allen’s wife Kathy came with him. Holeman said, at first, he didn’t plan on arresting Allen at the start of the interview, but read him his Miranda Rights anyway.

Holeman said they started by talking about firearms and past military experience, and if anything was damaged when investigators searched his home. He asked Allen if anyone borrowed his car, clothes, or gun for long periods of time, to which Allen said no. Allen also denied having his firearm on him on Feb. 13, 2017 – the day of the murders.

Holeman told the jury he told Allen that Oberg’s report matched the bullet to his gun. Allen denied this. Holeman said after denying it, Allen’s “demeanor changed.”

The lieutenant asked Allen about a few comments he made during the search, and Allen retaliated, saying “his life was already ruined because all of his friends and community ‘thought he did it.’” Holeman asked about the “Bridge Guy” video, and the witnesses and experts who said that was him. Holeman then told the jury he lied to Allen about this, as it wasn’t true. Allen denied at least 20 times that he was the killer and that his gun was there, according to Holeman.

After further back-and-forth, Holeman said Allen told him, “I am not going to tell you something I didn’t do…I don’t care what you do to me. I am not going to ever tell you something I didn’t do.”

Allen continued denying knowing the girls, both men throwing expletives at each other during the interview. Holeman added that Allen did not explain why the cartridge was cycled through his gun.

Holeman said Allen did eventually confirm he was on the High Bridge on Feb. 13, 2017. They took a brief break during the interview. Holeman said he overheard Allen speaking with his wife, Kathy, telling her if she asked for a lawyer, they’d let her go.

Continuing the interview, Allen told Holeman that he had a side holster and carried his firearm with one round in the chamber. He continued to deny ever knowing Libby and Abby or knowing how his bullet got there.

Holeman briefly explained to the jury his training to know when someone is lying. The common cues he said to look for involved body language, such as touching of the face or looking away. He said there were “few signs of deception” from Allen, but they were “very subtle.”

Allen, at one point, reportedly told Holeman during the interview, “What kind of good person would kill two girls?”

Holeman said during the end of the interview, he told Allen he “thought he did it.”

Allen replied, “Then take all of your evidence and arrest him already.”

After meeting with other investigators, Richard Allen was placed under arrest.

Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin began his questioning, mentioning that though Holeman said he read Allen his rights, the beginning of the interview wasn’t recorded. Holeman confirmed it wasn’t recording, but when they got the camera to record, there was a delay in the footage which doesn’t show Holeman walking into the interrogation room.

Baldwin told the court this was one of the “many missing videos in this case.”

Baldwin then moved to admit Allen’s two October 2022 interviews for evidence. Special Judge Fran Gull agreed to show the interviews to the jury sometime next week.

9 a.m.: Court begins for Saturday session

Brief summary of Day 7 in the Delphi murders trial

At 9:05 a.m., the state called its first witness to the stand: Melissa Oberg, a operations data analyst for a clinical asset health management company. Oberg previously worked as a forensic firearm analyst for the Indiana State Police, but resigned in 2013.

Oberg explained to the jury the process of analyzing a firearm, the different impressions made on bullets, the parts of the gun, and more. The state then showed pictures of an unspent .40-caliber bullet, or the “magic bullet” found near Libby German and Abby Williams’ bodies near Deer Creek. Oberg identified the bullet as a Winchester .40-caliber cartridge that had no biological substance on it. She also noted possible ejector marks and compared it to ejector marks from a Glock 22, another .40-caliber weapon.

After a brief recess, Oberg showed the jury a presentation that concluded that the gun collected from Richard Allen’s home in 2022, a Sig Sauer, had cycled the cartridge that was found near the bodies. She compared tool marks from the unspent cartridge and a test cartridge, saying “several marks were in sufficient agreement.” Oberg finished by confirming the cartridge found at the scene had not been fired.

Oberg said earlier that toolmarks are “features imparted on an object by the contact and force extended from a tool.”

Court recessed for lunch and returned around 1:15 p.m. Friday. News 8’s Kyla Russell reported an alternate juror did not return from lunch and was excused, leaving 12 jurors and three alternates.

Oberg continued testifying as the defense began their cross-examination. Defense attorney Brad Rozzi asked Oberg to define “sufficient agreement” and discussed how PCAST (President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology) has been studying if the “tool mark industry” is valid science.

Oberg and Rozzi entered a back-and-forth, with Oberg defining how pressure is what is different between cycling or versus firing a cartridge. She again confirmed that the marks on the cartridge helped her determine it matched Allen’s gun. Rozzi, at some point, mentioned Oberg’s previous comment that the tool kit test was “like paternity test.” Rozzi asked Oberg if it’s possible that an unspent round could have been cycled through multiple firearms; she agreed.

After a short break, Oberg presented exhibits and answered questions from the jurors. The questions included one about the cycled bullet found near the girls’ bodies and others about the bullets taken from Allen’s home and cycled as part of Oberg’s testing.

Oberg concluded by saying “the results of those tests did not result in an exact match.”